Cinema changes

Now, I'm not that bad; I'm just impartial. I got MM from a tree today, though I think the RNG may be favoring you and skippy more. Also, please don't eat my crows.

I've noticed that mine often give out the same reward (even other than XP) if I click on them in quick succession, but it's not something that I have been able to consistency reproduce enough to convince me that there is indeed an an oversight that prevents them from being calculated individually.

@honeywest

I guess I should elaborate some. The main issue I have with your argument is capitalism vs. socialism. Germany, where Bigpoint is, is very much capitalist. Only this year did they begin to enforce a new, national minimum wage law, that they are doing everything they can to skirt around. Germany has a reputation for being very business-oriented, having among the highest GDPs. Look at German cars: nobody complains about them. Same with a lot of tangible German products. I think the way they have been pushing for more spending in RC fits capitalism perfectly. They reduced our welfare, which is a very capitalist move. It's practically anti-socialist. This is just how games with microtransactions usually work, no matter where they hail. It's the model of the product, not the country; often an international product in an international, capitalist market.

Bigpoint seems to just be making bad decisions in general (from our perspective) that anybody could make and that I've seen made regardless of nationality. Their conduct may leave much to be desired, but it has nothing to do with either their nationality or socialism. It sure isn't only the U.S. that cares about service. All of the game's boards complain about the same things, even the German, as far as I have seen. While Europe tends to have more prominent social programs, acceptance of such, and open socialists in power, it's not accurate to say that they are socialist countries. Welfare states, perhaps (not unlike the U.S. just a little more). Capitalism drives the society there and pretty much the world over in some form or another. Few countries actively claim to be socialist or to be working towards it as the primary model, and those that do claim may not qualify anyway. Many would agree that true socialism or communism has never happened. At best you'll find a mix, just like the U.S. among other places. Though the term 'mixed economy' is disputed it gives a general idea.

Essentially, what I'm saying is that while some may lean more social than others, Europe is not socialist any more than the U.S. is capitalist. There is little difference between them economically so to call either one thing means the other must be as well. Even economists are inconsistent with who is what and political bias tends to creep in considering how closely related they are. I live in France now, and there is little difference in the service I receive or how the end-user/consumer/customer seems to be treated in general. The small differences are cultural and nothing I could ascribe to capitalism vs. socialism. While there are some cultural differences in how businesses are run on an intrapersonal level, I don't believe they will differ drastically as a whole insofar as how a product is concerned or keeping customers happy, because capitalism is capitalism and we are all capitalist societies as it stands. How each society is marketed to seems to be a bigger difference.

As for Sweden, I was only contesting what you mentioned about their houses and law enforcement. You didn't mention business at all in regards which helps serve to politicize the words in my opinion. Add to that that few seem to actually know what socialism or communism actually are and it all seemed rather like Red Scare speech. I've honestly never heard these things about Sweden before, so I did some research and it pretty much universally disagrees. I may have erred, but my information comes from articles on public housing there, how to move there, and comments by actual Swedes discussing such things. I even tried asking some Swedes, and the ideas were pretty much disregarded as being ridiculous. So at the very least, we have differing accounts.

As far as I have gathered, the Swedish government doesn't exactly own most of the housing. Though they do have social housing, it wasn't entirely state-owned and as I understand, most of it has transferred to fully private ownership, where it operates much like any rental system elsewhere. Though it does appear renting directly from property owners is less common and you go through either government or private offices, those offices do not own the property. Buying property doesn't seem to be complicated either. So most property is in fact owned by regular people. Social housing doesn't necessarily mean the state owns it: often it's just subsidized in some way. You may own your home in the U.S. Until you stop paying property tax and it ends up being seized. You are, in effect, paying the government to live in your house; assuming that you do pay it, of course. Generalizing here because it's obviously not that simple, but I hope you see my point.

The Swedish police can't just up and walk in on you in normal situations either as far as I can tell, which wouldn't be because of socialism anyway even if they can. Written warrants are generally not needed, but they still require one. Of course, that is just the law: in practice it may be different, and some comments have pointed out some instances, just as growing evidence of police corruption in the U.S. has shown. And you should know that it is possible to bypass need for a warrant (or at least informing you of one) in special circumstances in the U.S. as well, legally.

Between the U.S. and Europe at least in the context of this thread, we are all comparably free citizens.

And I know very well how easy it is to misunderstand. Language is my area. Native U.S. English, French (needs some polish in some areas), and learning Japanese, so I have a decent view of (sometimes vast) cultural differences via, plus my own interests. I find that getting your meaning across with text isn't harder, per se, only sometimes different. It can certainly take more effort, if only for the hands, and will not stray far from how you speak if speaking is what you want to use the text for (as opposed to poetry or narration), as they are closely related skills.

This is a fine point, but you have to consider not only what is said but how it is said, which to me, made it sound political, though also as if it could have came across incorrectly.

I can attest to a certain feel in the German games, and I can say that about a lot of games from particular regions. Developers tend to market to their native audience, which is why a ton of games never get released outside of their home market, for example, or the localization process, trying to develop native brands for foreign markets, handing of the property to an overseas branch or trying to make it 'more appealing to a wider audience' can butcher them.

That doesn't sound uniquely German, for sure. I'm amazed at what can sell sometimes… Or even get made for that matter.

Seems pretty universal to me, not to say that it is universally standard or that individuals don't differ.

That is exactly why these games still exist and have even eaten into the 'real games' market of PCs and consoles. The basic model is instant gratification and consumption. Though of course, they can last if they want them to, but few games ever have eternal, official support due to the nature of computers and business.

 

Well said again.

 

@Arsuru

My friends from Sweden are game developers. Go figure. They are the ones that have explained to me that virtually no one, unless they are exceedingly wealthy, owns their own home in Sweden. Personally, aside from that I think that life in Sweden sounds quite pleasant. I wasn't trying to be "political." I was using countries' types of government to try to explain that the way they do business is quite different than in the U.S. Germany may becoming more and more capitalist, but the last time I looked, they were still a socialist country, as is most of Europe. Right now, I think the U.S. is definitely heading toward becoming a socialist country, either that, or a country owned by Corporate America. In Germany, it’s required for worker representation to be half of board members of their companies. I personally don't believe any government should be interfering with the way in which companies choose to manage themselves. A group of brilliant entrepreneurs shouldn't be forced to give half their company's management over to the workers/representatives.

Additionally, if Germany is not a socialist country, then what is it? Capitalism encourages entrepreneurs and excellent customer service. Capitalism and customer service go hand in hand; and customer service is not a German philosophy. Customer service is one of the best and biggest aspects of capitalism and competition.

Germany now does have a capitalist market economy; however, with relatively high tax rates. This money is used to fund extensive social welfare and healthcare programs, as well as anti-unemployment measures and a mostly state-run system of education. Yes, they seem to becoming more capitalistic, but they are still foreigners to me and to my way of thinking.

I was not denigrating anyone's form of government. I was basically stating the facts as I know them and comparing different cultural ways of thinking that, frankly, are sometimes anathema to me having been born in the U.S. I have a diverse group of friends from all over the world through beta testing games. Sometimes I just don't understand how someone can think a certain way, and then I just have to realize because they don't know any different. Just like me. All I know is how I live here and how things work here. Yes, I read a lot and study a lot, talk with family and friends, but it is not the same as living in another country.

My whole point is that people that are "foreign" to me think differently than I do. They do not have the same basic principles of what I think good business practice really is. I don't feel that the devs for this game care about what I want or need with their product that I am paying for. We have a saying here in the U.S. - The customer is always right.

 

@honeywest

Your Swede friends being game developers isn't relevant to the housing argument. We have conflicting accounts by Swedes (and in my case other relevant sources), so it's moot as far as it matters here. Unless some Swedes want to chime in to at least help, because this it OT enough and I don't think anyone cares. And the problem with you using other county's types of government as an example is that it appears you don't know what the governments are. Even if those governments have an influence on the way business is done, I don't believe they influence the consumer's experience to a significant extent in the context of our societies right now. You're equating socialism with bad service, or quality of service with government/economy, which is just a false premise. Service quality is more cultural or individual, which doesn't require governmental influence.

I explained already; Germany, Europe in general, the U.S., Canada, Japan… pretty much any relatively important power, have socialist elements, but that doesn't mean they are socialist. Germany has been described as a social market economy, which is? A form of capitalism. Germany isn't becoming more capitalist: they pretty much always have been. Likewise we can't say the U.S. is totally capitalist. They can be described as welfare states (which isn't the same as socialism) or as even mixed economies.

And this is what I mean. You don't seem to know what socialism is. Europe, seems socialist in comparison to the U.S. (more taxes to social programs [taxes being social anyway]) but that doesn't mean they are socialist. Like a fly is big next to a flea, but nobody would say a fly is big. We contain water but are not water (let's not go there either people). The only defining characteristics of socialism are who owns the means of production and production for use (not profit). That goods are made for profit alone indicates capitalism. By your logic, the U.S. is socialist because of unions (not quite the same in practice, I know, but chances are you appreciate the effects of their historical struggles) and certain co-ops.

Of course there are different thoughts and some would call Europe socialist, but by the same definition, the U.S. must be as well. Makes sense; we aren't black and white. All I'm saying is that there is little actual difference except where taxes end up. As I said, economists can't even decide which words to use sometimes. Some serious people that aren't conspiracy theorist can place the U.S. as almost fascist, depending on definition. We are primarily capitalist societies with socialist aspects. You claim to be 'middle of the road' so this shouldn't be difficult to understand.

And on those taxes, the U.S. has all of those things you give examples of Germany funding with taxes. Not as extensive, no, excepting perhaps the schooling. The vast majority of K-12 students go to public schools in the U.S.

Entrepreneurs are not strictly capitalist concepts, thus neither is advancement, competition or diversity. New and innovative goods will be in need regardless, especially now that we know how good they can be. You call them brilliant, others call them brilliant cons, and slavers. Nevermind the luck and marketing factor involved in selling a product over how good a product actually is, i.e. fads. Not to say that there aren't legitimate, worthy successes, of course.

As for customer service, I've seen good and bad everywhere I've been. It has nothing to do with capitalism either. Yes, nations have their own ideas and ways of doing business, but that is pretty much irrelevant to being capitalist or socialist or whatever. Germany seems to have a record for bad service (news to me), but then they seem to have a record for being strong capitalists too. Like, for at least 100 years in the modern world. Yeah, they were late to the Industrial Revolution, but they dominated the markets once they got there and are still strong players, with among the highest trade surpluses and rates of export and import. Yeah, revolutions and wars complicated things, but they always came back.

Also, I know the saying very well, being a native. It's a principle I've seen elsewhere. It's a principle that certainly doesn't always hold true, and within the U.S. this is no exception. I've had my share of 'not being right', there. Why? Because. That's how it is. And guess what? No matter how good or bad their service may actually be, Germany has an equivalent: the customer is king. Here in France there is one: the customer is never wrong. Japan: the customer is a god. I'm saying, it's a concept that is as inherent to business as cheating people. It is not inherent to capitalism, which is not needed for business to function.

I get your point. Really, I do. I just don't agree, and have never seen any evidence that could make me. Though I most certainly do agree that the world is either going to go socialist/communist properly or totally corporate. It's an interesting time, between utter utopia and dystopia, and the means are available for both, with even the possibility that the younger of us could live to see it. Or maybe nothing will happen and that's just a cyberpunk fantasy running wild. I mean, we don't even have flying cars on the thoroughfares yet.

However I really have no intention of going down that road here. Or continuing this at all, because it's become cyclic and I'm mostly repeating things I've already said, giving me the feeling that you aren't actually understanding what I'm saying (not to say that you must agree). The information is out there if you wish to know more.

I'm also not accusing you of denigrating anyone. I'm not advocating or deploring one system over the other here, but your staunch defense of capitalism and reaffirmation of what it does despite that makes you appear irrationally committed to it — as if only it can accomplish these things, especially now. This is just an observation, not an insult.

 

Thank you Krassandra and Geflin, I do believe you understand what I was trying to get across. I just used capitalism vs. socialism as an example of different mind sets regarding business practices. I understand the points you are trying to make Arsuru, I just don't think you are right and I just don't agree with you. Let's agree to disagree and go on. This whole back and forth thing about who is capitalist and who is socialist is really getting tedious. My whole point is that I don't like being ignored by the devs. No meaningful communication from them for over a year is worrisome. Just all of a sudden taking money out of the cinema without a believable reason being given with no care to our reaction is not good business practice in a capitalistic environment.

 

Well said, Krassandra BTW...I think the devs have been listening; Kiriana and I as well as several friends have noticed the Xmas tree(s) and City Hall have been kicking out sizeable wads of MM ($70-$140) a lot more often these past couple of weeks. We believe the devs are trying to compensate for the Cinexplex losses, to let the players know they actually do care. Of course, it's only speculation (hence the wish for better communication).

 

I've had $70 MM from my tree twice this last week...that never happened before the Cineplex reduction. Before that I might get MM once or twice a month. Surely not complaining, and yeah it may be coincidence but I'm thinkin' it's not. There are four other RC players in this house and they all have noticed this very same recent MM increase. Just sayin'

 

The other day I wanted to see again my Ramacity town and... poof! it disappeared. So I'm stuck now in Rising Cities.

 

This cat has been travelling and my tail has been glad that I have avoided all of these rocking chairs. Now that things appear to have calmed down. Are you all saying that there is some one behind the curtain, Toto? That someone actually has made modifications to the game. Interesting. Time will tell.

 

Could swear I saw a guy in a little green suit by my tree...figured he was a St. Paddy's Day Leprechaun. Should have known better since he had MM not a pot o' gold *Says this while braiding four-leaf clovers into the fur on Billyjim's tail*

 

I just got yet another $180 MM from my City Hall.

 

I think you all are just getting lucky.

RamaCity looked interesting from what I can tell, and more advanced in many ways, like it would have been the sequel. Never got to play it though.

What do you find incorrect about it? Have you've been implying that I'm generalizing and not making my principle clear? Because everyone's was clearly stated to me and I didn't obfuscate anything, though I'm unmentioned. My principle was objective definitions, which can be generally the same if not universal. Nuances, subjectivity and misinformation change things. I agree that we are all generally committed to something, but there was no need for me to express being committed to any policy if that is what you mean (which is what everyone else's stated principles were), as it wouldn't've been relevant to the discussion or my intention.

I don't think I totally follow what you're saying. Unless you mean that only a local business needs to worry about retaining local customers as they are less renewable than an online base. Word-of-mouth can be powerful in either realm.

I don't think anyone was arguing that the customer is a goal, though. I certainly wasn't. However a business usually needs needs customers to get money so it would be a goal all the same to attract them for many businesses. To acquire the means, if you prefer.

I don't see how game development is especially different to other businesses at the most basic level. Still need to sell. Still cultivate fans (consumer base) based on the products. I've been playing videogames pretty much my entire life. The company's appear like any other company to me from a consumer's view. Whether they are online games or not, the decisions they make regarding selling their products are similar other industries.

 

I get quite a few MM's (especially from rent/collecting rent) but sometimes the challenges they give you to complete cost more MM's to do/complete then how much reward/MM's they give you back. And that doesn't really help, Although it isn't a big deal.

 

Nicely put Asuru, and directly on the mark

 

I don't know if it's evident, but I'm not saying that the universal principals are the only ones. Of course, any product will have more specific things to define them. I'm not just applying whatever I want however I want with no basis.

And you can't justly assume I only play and see from a consumers view. I specified how things looked to me from my consumer's view, which was what seemed most relevant. I've mentioned it to you before, but I've been involved in modding games, which is not very far from actual development. In many cases, including much of my own experience, it is not different at all. I've never made a game from scratch, but I've messed with the means to. While it doesn't replace working in the field, I've read plenty of articles on game development (and some on non-game development here and there), as well as development diaries, because like a lot of gamers, I've more-than-casually considered making my own video game. Maybe I'll still get to that one day. So I do certainly possess other views.

I can certainly say that developers don't always know what they are doing. Not all games are well-executed, especially entirely. You don't need to be a professional developer to see like one. When you've played a lot of games, you learn things. I don't know how many times I've questioned design choices… But then, a lot of aspects are entirely subjective, which is why modding is so popular. Not that a lot of people know how to do that right either.

I've looked at many products and questioned them in various ways. And still, even considering my 'developer' view, things appear mostly the same, from conceptualization, to production, to advertising, to delivery. And I've certainly seen cases of customers being taken care of in a variety of ways in any situation, with plenty of overlap. I'm just saying that 'completely different' doesn't seem at all accurate. I am not saying it is exactly the same, either. This isn't binary.

Those words tend to raise a flag. Why should I, over a ton of (rather varied) articles and first-hand experience? Maybe I haven't read or experienced the right things, but you aren't very convincing in any case.

 

I agree mostly because krassandra keeps missing the entire point; she says we look at things from a consumer point of view and the developers look at it from their view and know how to do it better. That might hold up...until one realizes it was never put forth consumers know better than developers how to run their particular kind of business. That was never said. Krassandra, you have taken this whole thing out of context. Developers, or any business person whatsoever, will never know better than the consumer how to make the consumer happy enough to spend their money on that business. The day anybody thinks they know better than me how to make me happy, and is right, is the day the universe will cease to exist. What I am saying is, it was never challenged that the developers knew better than us how to run an online game business; it was stated the practices they exhibited were unsatisfactory to particular players who opined they would not continue patronage unless change took place.

You keep trying to imply that since we don't know how to run an online game business that we as consumers don't know better than the developers do when we say we don't like this or that. If I walked into your business (saying for the sake of argument that you, krassandra, had a business), and said "I'd buy from you, but your sales clerk was rude", and you told me I was looking at it from a consumer's point of view not your business model view and you knew better than I did because it was your business and not mine...not only would I not do business with you, I would organize a boycott, report you to the chamber of commerce and better business bureau, and give your business every bit of bad publicity I could manage to give it. Why? Because that assertion is, in my opinion, the lamest way to approach a customer. That assumes I have an obligation to spend my money with you based on your personal opinion of your own business savvy...rather than a free choice based on my satisfaction as a customer.

I agree with Asuru...you are simply hard to believe. You present everything backwards and off point, in a manner so out of touch with reality I wonder if you ever actually understood the entire (ongoing) conversation. Please explain how your assertions regarding the developers' know how translates into players being wrong to say "we are not happy with this part of the game or how this is run, as customers"? Ultimately, unhappy customers stop being customers...and when that happens and there are no customers...well, you seem to argue that is ok, because the business just moves to another game and market and repeats. Ummm, NO, that does not make it ok. You essentially are saying a good business model is sell inferior/flawed merchandise until the customers wise up, then switch products and venue? Here in the USA that will get you arrested and imprisoned under the RICO act, eventually. It's called deceptive business practices...if a prosecutor can prove you started a business knowing that at a certain point your product would fail, with intention to repeat that business model over and over.

 

Anticipated this. The only real difference is making money. Some mods are full-scale games entirely different from the base. Modders get scouted by devs. Amateur games can be way better than professional. You have to know how to make a product in all cases to succeed.

We can argue that development is different than running a business, but you were up there saying that devs think differently, implying that they must also run the business. Seems like there is some confusion between making products and running businesses.

Except you haven't actually explained anything. All you've done is give baseless 'this is how it is' statements. You seem to be missing the point, generalizing too far to extremes of 'this or that' and applying it universally — much like you've accused me of — cherry-picking what makes your point seem more valid and ignoring the rest. You just seem irrationally partial to one specific niche in games, perhaps due to personal involvement. It even borders on nationalism form my perspective. This assuming I'm correct in deducing that you are German and involved in game development as some comments have pointed toward.

Or maybe we're just having a massive miscommunication.

As dev diaries are from the horse's mouth, I'll take their word for it, generally. Their successful, money-making word. And I'm not only relying on playing games. It's multi-cultural involvement with businesses, including games, that I'm pulling from.

In this world where conglomerates own competing brands and the consumers are totally unaware, the above is evidently not applicable to anything but video games.

Not seeing this being specific to Germany. Plenty of devs in other countries failed to address customers and just do what they wanted, and there was probably no significant net-difference in players. Loose some, gain some. Then, sometimes they kill their franchises. Sometimes they save them. Sometimes they get better by incorporating what modders have been doing for years. Just depends.

RC/BP have caved to consumers a few times. The material fee for emergencies and negative RI values come to mind, the latter which I thought made sense, but oh well. I guess that best German strategy is removing most of the need to even think about what improvements to use.

A toy has to entertain, or it won't be played with. I think this analogy fails. I'd like some examples of these so-called 'school strategy' games (unless you mean school as in thought) or the proper German word, at least, because anything I put in in German returns pretty much the same games belonging to differing types of strategy as I'd get in English.

I mean, taking RC, it's not really much different than other such games. I'm familiar with the typical German-style board games, if that is at all comparable with the differences. I know cultural differences exist. Japanese RPGs and strategy games are generally quite different than western counterparts, but no cultural differences stops me from enjoying them. Then, that's just me.

 

I'm pretty sure I see the nuances, but I'm asking for specifics for the sake of making sure I'm not missing something. I'm no stranger to German games, but I've admittedly played less of them overall. The first time you mentioned 'school strategy' it just sounded like light strategy requiring little thought as you say RC is a classic example. I even mentioned being familiar with German board games, which are seen as a class of their own. I mean, I know how Anno differs from Age of Empires, or Starcraft, or Fire Emblem, for example. But Anno's isn't a style that I only see in German games, and it's certainly not comparable to RC.

Way to simply be helpful when asked.

 

And your position assumes, incorrectly, that every human being (i.e. customer) acts like an ignorant, uneducated, manipulable cross between a lab rat and one of Pavlov's dogs!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why do you refuse to see that, at least for this person, not every customer allows themselves to be led around by the nose ring swallowing the babble-drivel gibberish of "you feel it's wrong but it's ok because we tell you so and we are the experts"?????? You have argued and argued, presumably to convince me that your understanding of how the business world of developing internet games somehow negates the fact I am too educated and too independent to simply accept mistreatment as the better knowledge of the businessman trying to get my business.

Here's a wake up call for your so called business model knowledge; if I stop being a customer here because I dislike the business practices I may very well just never patronize any other online game just to prove you wrong...after all, there is a good bookstore just down the street that still sells paper books. I find your reliance on what equates with 'oh, well, treat them how you like, the idiots will just buy a different product from us from a different source" patently offensive, selfish, unrealistic, and perhaps the absolute poorest business mind-set i have ever encountered.

I begin to believe you lack the so called knowledge you are trying to discuss. I think you are just some addicted online gamer that has no actual clue or life experience as to how actual business actually functions. I have shown some of what you have said to a few of the business professors at the college I attend; I assure you there was much laughter. (edit) Your ongoing dialogue demonstrates you are stuck in the archaic past instead of recognizing the way the modern world functions; at least I am able and willing to admit when I am wrong...which you seem unable to do. Let me close by pointing out...Japan's business models since WWII are very close to those of the USA, in fact they are better....and quite different from what you are asserting as good business. I believe if you told a Japanese business owner (say you were a developer of online games working for him) that you were sorry you lost all his customers because of bad service but hey, we'll just sell them another game on another site....he'd hand you a wakasashi and request you restore your honor by removing a finger. You'd likely run out of fingers pretty fast. The Japanese do not throw away customer satisfaction as a relevant factor to consider, and they do focus on productivity and profit. They pretty much dominate the modern business world (I don't own a German made computer, right?)

 

I received lately some MM from the City Hall too, but, unfortunately, the Loot-O-Matic showed up, so, no more MM from the City Hall for this mayor (at least for a while).