Production Faclity Mastery/Level 4 Upgrades

There has been much discussion of the need for added production in the game, and many good suggestions have been made. From an industrial area play field, to extra permits, to such facilities as special event prizes.

I think there is a easier solution at least on the short term level, and it is entirely consistent with the existing game structure. This would at least allow existing production facilities to keep up with the added demand caused by the new play fields and the Mastery Challenges (and Level 4 upgrades) to residential buildings. This would be to create Mastery Challenges and Level 4 upgrades for production facilities; the upgrade would both double the output level and allow application of the Mastery bonuses same as residential (i.e., +25% production, -25% mood/energy costs, or -25% production timer)

The Mastery Challenges (five star stages) can be relatively difficult, given the impact such increased production would have. Examples are require production of several thousand (10k or more) of each product the facility can produce, just to complete one challenge. Another challenge could be to produce "X" number of special items during weekly events. A further challenge could be to produce and then sell at Marketplace "X" number of an item.

I have attached a poll here because that seems to be the best way to consolidate everyone's thoughts on an important issue and get the devs to take it seriously. So, please my fellow Mayors, let your voices be heard. Cast your vote and add your thoughts below in a comment. I believe there are many of you who agree we need more production...and I know your reasons are varied enough that they need to all be fairly considered. Here's your opportunity

 

yes this idea of yours would be great so I can build and or do the upgrades I need Because city hall not going to be upgraded anymore cause it will take to long to build the resources for it. I have many building needing upgraded first. I don't get to play all the time so just to upgrade city hall would put all others on hold for 3-6 months. I would not mind putting upgrades on hold if it mint I would produce more.

 

so you mean like housing challenges? if yes that will be a good idea.

 

You sly old owl you. Putting dozen or more threads in one place and making a simple and logical solution. This is one of the reasons you are such an asset to us all. Love the idea and would be more than willing to go for it.

 

This has always been one of my favorite options, along with 'industrial improvements'. Though I still insist that we all get the same number of available permits first, because just giving more is only going to partially alleviate the produce problem. Or not, as we can see with bakeries.

Not sure industry should be given the same bonuses as residential though, but I guess it works. A lot harder for me to choose at least, and like houses ought to be, should definitely be changeable somehow as the game develops. I will never want to level up my ranches again… A combination of the increased output for relatively less PP, as is normal, with an inherent reduction in mood/energy for more efficient tech. These could come from the challenges themselves, easily.

It's a step in the right direction, but I think there needs to be more done in general, and I feel the problem is mostly concerning produce, less building materials. It would be silly not to include both, though.

 

Whoooooooooooo...me? *blushes* T'was nothing, really *blinks coyly*. Thank you for the compliment. Thank everyone for their input and support. Let us just hope and pray something good comes of it

 

You have my vote of support

Looking through the early "Official Announcement" threads it seems that residential buildings were changed to allow a Level 4 upgrade through the mastery system and subsequent increase in population, but the production and commercial buildings were left at Level 3 maximum. Is that correct?

 

That is how I read the Official Announcements when I went through them years ago.

 

I totally agree with you Geflin. I really like your idea about the Mastery challenges. Demand for farm products and bakeries can get short at times and the length of brickyard products to be produced can be shortened or make it worthwhile if you increase production some.

 

Thank you all for the compliments on the idea; I truly believe it is consistent with the Mastery Challenges for residential buildings, and that it sufficiently compensates for the population (and therefore product demand) increases caused by those Level 4 upgrades and the expanded play fields. Not saying it will solve all the issues, but I believe it will go a longs ways towards that, while not upsetting the balance enough to adversely impact the marketplace. Most of the Players will likely use the increased production as intended, for needs revenues and events production, upgrading, etc. Not to mention it would just be plain fun to do production Mastery Challenges (just like residential Mastery Challenges are fun). I just hope the devs hear us and act

 

I like to get up in the morning and play the game while having coffee before going to work and again when I get home for some unwind time. So that's twice a day. When you start getting up to the higher levels you need more production to sustain the game that I enjoy playing. I strongly believe we need the "Manufacturing Mastery" to keep things from getting stale.

I do not understand Krassandra why you are so negative about what so many of us would like to see change in the game that we all so enjoy playing.

Also if we spend time playing the events we are playing the game for longer periods of time. So to play the game and not collect the rent when it comes up is not playing the game as it was intended.

 

I am a chronic insomniac...I attend college, do paralegal work, live-in babysit, and care for a friend dying of cancer. Since all that has me keeping odd hours, I log in several times a day; heck, I even play while working, using separate browsers or tabs, etc. The reason my revenues are so high is because I collect rent practically every time it comes up, excepting the very short terms buildings. Even so, it is difficult (not impossible) for me to maintain stockpiles of necessary construction materials for higher level upgrades, and keeping up with needs revenues, etc. So I completely agree with you piche.

I have forsworn conversing with krassandra further, because krassandra's negative about practically everything, not to mention contrary. Methinks she just likes to argue. I don't understand why she insists on it, other than her own statements that apparently no discussion is interesting (to krassandra) unless it's an adversarial verbal jousting match. I support anyone's right to freely and openly express their opinions...especially when they differ from others' opinions; however, I grow weary of listening to everlasting naysayers who declare everybody else to be wrong about practically everything because it's different from their view. I at least try to acknowledge the legitimacy of opposing thoughts and beliefs.

I started this thread because many players think some form of additional production is necessary. I would like to thank krassandra for expressing an opinion to the contrary, because that constitutes valuable input to the overall whole. Not only that, but krassandra is not "wrong" simply for having a differing opinion. I actually happen to agree regarding the need for maintaining balance in the game (especially in the marketplace). My opinion is rooted in the desire to fill needs and do construction, and I only occasionally sell in the marketplace. So krassandra's observations about the marketplace, devaluation, etc. are relevant and germane. Hopefully, the end result will be the majority will prevail but concerns of the minority will be taken into account.

 

I also think that with more production we have and if some mayors decide to sell goods in the marketplace it may help to lower the prices for brickyard goods to help the new mayors to be able to afford those products to help to them on building their new cities. The prices for those goods have gone real expensive even since I started playing the game.

 

I think this is a great idea. If we had more production btw...we would not need to buy as much from the marketplace, therefore those selling at such high prices would stop selling as much and the prices would come down. Basic economics; the supply increase affects the marginal price elasticity by causing a leftward shift in the marginal price benefit...not the other way around. Nobody would be getting 4k for bricks if several people were selling them for say 3k. Anyhow, it's not all about the marketplace. With all the new land and the upgrades to residences, my city will have a much larger population than before (obvious). Therefore I will need to be able to produce more to provide more (to my city). Don't worry yourself krassandra...not all of us are itching to make millions selling stuff. Besides, it's the insufficient production that forces players to buy the overpriced materials, or don't you get that? You think this is a bad idea, and you have every right to that opinion. Everyone else seems to think it's a pretty good idea. You have a backwards take on the marketplace though...in college economics they teach the exact opposite of your prediction regarding a flooded market. I doubt the entire academic world is wrong and you are right, on that particular.

 

Thank You Kiriana. I could not have said it better myself.

 

I have to call out Krassandra's logic too...........

You say you can't consume all your goods?
Well I could easily consume twice as much. I have already removed or not built many commercial buildings because of this.
So the lack of sufficient farms removes the game play in placing commercial buildings.
The lack of sufficient farms removes the game play of needing to raise cash through needs fulfillment.
The most effective way to raise cash is to have no needs fulfillment and sell farmed goods on the market.
(I admit it escapes me why anyone is buying farmed goods for greater than their need fulfilling value).
More farms would reduce market prices, making it harder to raise cash, and would make building commercial properties more important.

The same is true for bakeries and breweries.

As for materials, bricks and beams etc, I don't understand why you think you have more than enough, because I certainly don't.
A level 4 distinctive high rise needs 1000 concrete, 1750 bricks, 1750 roof tiles and 1000 tiles.
With 5 lvl 3 brickyards the bricks would take me 21 cycles, which would be 7 days for me.
The concrete would take me 3 cycles, which would be 2 days.
The rooftiles would take me 7 cycles, which would be 3 days.
The tiles would take me 6 cycles, which would be 6 days.

So that's 18 days to upgrade 1 level.

Alternatively I could buy the goods.....
Bricks = 7 million
Concrete = 0.75 million
Rooftiles = 8 million
Tiles = 8 million
A total of 24 million CC.

I collect about 1 million every day so that's going to take 3 weeks.

What if I sold bread rolls? I would need 80,000.
With 6 bakeries that would take 138 cycles which would be 17 days.

But I could do all three!
That means that absolutely everything I produce and collect will let me do this upgrade in only 1 week.

Of course, if that was how quickly my city was "rising" I'd have stopped playing long ago.
I now only build and upgrade special buildings which have far less requirements.
But this till means that I only make 2 or 3 building improvements every week, and that's just a bit too slow really. Because, this is supposed a CITY BUILDING game.

 

That's a very comprehensive reply, brucenic. I was going to produce a similar example, but now don't feel the need.

On the whole, I only ever buy stuff on the market - I sell VERY little. Yet I still don't have a surplus of food. I could probably sell donuts, but I could also restock my main city with donuts and get through my stocks in very little time indeed. Same with raspberries. Same with rolls.

But building materials I'm always short of. You can build up 10k roof tiles over a period of a couple of weeks, but you can use them up in no time, if a bunch of upgrades come up each requiring 1250. I've largely given up making bricks, because 96 every 3 hours when you need 1000 at a time for upgrades is tooooo slow. If we upgraded industrial buildings it would be interesting to see if the huge surplus of PP that must be kicking around came down, and people had to start feeding their workers again.

There was a time when I could buy bricks at 300CC each. And I swore I'd never pay more than that. Then 700 was the limit I'd pay, now as the CC is rolling in and I have little else to spend it on so that builds up faster than anything else, and paying 4k or more for bricks seems to be the only way of getting them.

Since I have little or no space to build anything new, it's just about upgrading what I've got, playing events, and waiting, and hoping, for something new to come along. Let's hope the wait isn't much longer.

Now, please, could we stop fighting with each other and JUST talk about the subject, rather than about each other.

 

Could not have put it better myself:thank you brucenic. I supply my city's needs and do events with relative ease; mostly because I only sell at marketplace when I absolutely must do so, to get funds to buy construction materials I require for upgrades or events or to buy land plots. I certainly never participate in the market to fleece other players, buy low and sell high, replace rent collection with being a marketplace mercantile, such as some seem to believe everybody does (granted, that does happen, but it's not some universal rule that applies to every single player). I personally spend hours each day collecting rent and working with my city....even while also doing work or homework in different tabs. But even at Level 44 with fully upgraded production, and being on several times per day and for many hours at a time, I can only make "x" number of "x" materials at "x" rate and no more...and would be unable to keep up with my upgrades without massive expenditures of MM and CC to compensate. Even with increased production (such as I've suggested here) it will still be a monumental effort. I just don't see how allowing players to generate the materials they require in slightly higher quantities will somehow jack up market prices, when the reality is it would reduce what players even need to buy and thus lower market prices.

 

Wait guys, I think Krassy is trolling. Or a BP propagandist. Probably trolling. Or really doesn't understand.

You must be trolling. There is no way Krassandra, the great strategist, number-cruncher, and market believer could not see why production needs addressed. Or is this part of that best German strategy? This stuff has been talked about all over the place, but why not repeat it all?

Uh-oh, I'mma start typing now. Get comfortable! People have posted pretty much the same things since, but why waste my effort?

Millions that get spent immediately on materials and upgrades. Only the CC cost of the upgrade is more easily attainable.

Really? I though mastery was just a tacked-on game extension and commodity sink, which is the laziest kind of balancing you can do. It's fun, to be sure, but it increased demand for everything, putting the market in the situation it is now. Increasing event frequency and then material requirements also played a large role. They have done everything to increase demand, yet even reduced supply.

See, if you've been playing this long, it should make perfect sense.

Didn't we agree this was the first logical step in the strategy? In almost all strategy games involving resources, maximizing your potential resources is the most important thing you can do, and is thus usually the first thing to work toward.

Actually, it is possible to consume it all. As a long-time player, you should be well aware that it is in fact impossible to supply everyone with full needs with your own facilities. Not that we shouldn't have to buy some things, but it isn't profitable to buy most produce because you incur a loss when supplying to capitalists. PP and EP can be had for cheaper and is pretty much self-sustainable. It essentially become expensive experience points that don't actually help you much.

Makes buying RI packs with CC more reasonable. I wonder if we can crash the warehouse with all the classic RIs we'll get. Anyone want to try?

Wait, you aren't getting millions per day? Because I sure am. I often spend it shortly after. Yes, we effectively trade materials, so that actually doesn't really change the progress much. The prices have scaled and generally remain consistent. It was the same when things were cheaper; you effectively trade what you can afford to produce for what you can't in terms of PP and/or time. You can buy land and cover permit and upgrade costs in CC a bit faster, but material acquisition is much the same. Bricks used to be around 160cc but tiles were also less expensive. It scales. You can see it happening during events still. Rent and needs could actually have noticeable offset in upgrade costs before, but now, no.

This has always been the case. This is the entire mechanic of the game. If new events with higher requirements will be added, production will almost certainly have to increase or it will be become necessary to use MM/pay real money to complete, which effectively turns a portion of the game to pay to win, which is going to be a big problem.

As has been echoed several times, more supply will equal less demand and thus cheaper prices. Permits are unlimited for those that wish, though yes, new permits, that must be coming to fill the new levels, will increase demand. Now, imagine the material cost. It will likely be huge, and it will become even more unreasonable.

Definite troll.

Looks to me more like they entirely failed to calculate growth, or actually thought people would pay to keep up with such unreasonable demand. If this were a real city, there would be mass poverty and starvation. A lot of the additions, mastery and new fields, seem to have been tacked-on without accounting for growth. Yes, production is sufficient to keep your PP and EP up, but it ends up being that you almost only supply that to yourself. You can forgo that entirely with enough worker/student buildings.

They didn't really limit production much. They nonsensically removed two mills hoping we will pay more to complete upgrades and events, I'm sure. Then they give us more bakeries which only makes the biker event easier. Then they give another mill and farm at levels where they won't even matter. It's completely illogical and has largely changed nothing.

RC has no 'real' strategy. It is very basic and you don't need to plan especially far nor will you benefit much from doing so given the pace. You can't make a megalopolis in a month. It takes months to make a large city because you have to wait for upgrades to be possible, and that is assuming you collect rent all day. Unless you pay a lot, of course. And industry expanding with city is only normal. More people need more food and need more jobs.

The market has remained balanced. It is behaving exactly as expected. Materials aren't really a problem, as again, we trade them, like we always have. Produce is largely broken.

If they can upgrade faster, there will be more goods on the market, lowering prices. Brickyard products are the one thing in material manufacturing that probably could use a boost because there is always need for all products, where beams gradually become less-needed and you can focus on paneling or sell beams, netting you more paneling in the end if you can be here every hour.

Boosters do give nice amounts of brickyard products, which is a stark contrast to lumber mill products. It helps, to be sure, but it doesn't change a lot.

The game is pretty slow. How much slower do you want it? Really? I think the pace of advancement is not that bad, considering, if you can be online often. A slight increase wouldn't hurt though.

Could that be because demand is way higher than supply? This is basic economics. Beams are needed for a long time, and the events need a lot of them.

Of course it does. The only reason bakery products haven't gone down in price is because it still isn't enough. When a good isn't needed for events, the prices go back down. Supply and demand.

Agreed. I've suggested that number of goods needed be reduced as well. We don't need 8 or 12 of goods to be supplied. But simply inflating rent or revenue is not going to help much. Without increasing supply, it may even make things worse since some buildings may become profitable, further increasing demand.

There isn't much to the game other than that. If you have money to spare, just buy RIs, which are still largely useless for improving needs.

So to summarize and clearly explain, half of the game is pointless. There is little need for commercial buildings past a certain point, and it isn't profitable to keep capitalists in most buildings or supply needs to them because buying goods costs more than you get. You tend to need more capitalists for events too so it's even more useless. It's most evident with the farm and brewery, but the ranch could easily get there, and the Pier House Apartments are already borderline useless on supplying milk. Fishery could easily succumb too. Dairy is still profitable.

Bakery goods have never been profitable to supply to capitalists in my time, nor have been most brewery goods, and I watched as potatoes and the rest became unprofitable due to increased event frequency/requirements. It's painfully simple. I'm sure plenty of people don't even calculate that there is a net loss, or they wouldn't be buying produce as PP/EP are easily self-sustainable. Yes, there isn't an explicit need for more produce to make the game function, but as it is many games will be forced to follow the same pattern to remain functional.

Some want to be self-sufficient, which may be going too far. I simply want to be able to supply needs at a modest profit. This would actually slow down the accumulation of wealth because we couldn't sell rolls and potatoes for the insane prices we do. We'll get more experience, causing us to level faster which will make the options of what to do more diverse and cities will be more varied.

Again, materials are largely unaffected as you trade, which has always been the case. Prices have gone up across the board so there isn't much profit when you still have things to upgrade. Acquisition of land and building outward has sped up. Building upward is much the same.

I supply raspberries and hefeweizen as the only source for PP/EP as they are the only things I can reasonably keep enough of, with a tiny amount going to CC where it is making a profit over the market. Mystery Building goods, dairy, fishy and ranch are for capitalists. The rest? Useless. No time to make other farm goods. Bakery goods are, again, not profitable, so I sell rolls and pizza to the people that somehow find it worth it. Donuts would cut into my raspberry supply, so that is out, and they aren't worth as much as the constituents separately anyway. I'd sell what I get from boosters on the cheap, but I'm not even opening them until they update the reward pool. I have 100,000 of most produce though, just in case, but as it is I'd burn through that pretty fast if I actually started to use it to supply my 398 residential buildings and I intend to add more.

They are perfectly applicable even if it won't usually be as complicated. It almost always boils down to supply & demand and currency flow, and this isn't limited to online games. Offline games have the same things going on. Even in reality, without something to spend it on you will only accumulate money. RC's market may be simplified, but it follows the same principles and the current situation is entirely to be expected.

Some of that silly modding I did was economical balancing, by the way. And you know what? The devs went and implemented some of those measures that many have made to later titles. Of course, people still had to make changes for a variety of reasons, but that's how it goes. That's real game development in action. Certainly, I still have no idea what I'm talking about.

Look, if you're in game development, that doesn't mean you automatically know what you're talking about. Same with teachers, or any professional. Knowledge and experience are only potential differences, and that doesn't mean unpaid people or hobbyists can't know as much or more.

 

No, it's just that trolling is the only thing that makes sense to me. I'm actually not trying to be insulting, it's just illogical in every way I can imagine unless you only consider BP's profit via MM used to supply needs. Again, it's mostly about needs because materials are pretty reasonable. We aren't required to fulfill them but some want to, and some seem to feel compelled to, even thinking they can't upgrade their houses because they can't meet needs. Of course, that is a different problem, but I've seen it brought up several times on the forums.

I don't think BP is evil, I assure you. I know, I'm critical at times, because some simple fixes aren't done (not market/production, but actual bugs) and it does seem like the game is neglected for many reasons, though I don't think they have abandoned the game. I know additions need to be carefully balanced, especially since they have to consider their real profit.

I mentioned the mill removal and it has only made the situation worse and more unbalanced. I know balance well, which is why I specifically pointed out that PP/EP supply is fairly easily self-sufficient and upgrading is easily manageable because the actual price of materials doesn't matter in the end. You'll only really profit from selling materials when there is nothing for you to upgrade, at which point, the CC is only going to be good for RIs and expensive XP via supplying needs, which at that point won't do you much good.

The game functions, but much of the inherent gameplay is rendered useless, so balance has failed in some respect.